Mrs. Clotilde Medegan Noughbode is the                President of the High Court of Benin.  For the        past 16 years, Beninhas been at the forefront      of African democratization efforts. Yet the            country continues to grapple with desperate        poverty and entrenched corruption.  In her           capacity as Commissioner, Mrs. Nougbode            brought her vast experience with these problems to the first meeting of the Working Group on Access to Justice and Rule of Law in Washington, DC.

What is the biggest challenge the poor face when trying to access the law?

CM: It is important is to ensure that laws are understandable and usable by the poor. This means especially the laws which directly concern them – family law, land and property rights, work and also health and housing. Laws should be made accessible. We need to bring the law to the people because they can’t understand and read the laws.

What is the link between formal law and the laws used by the poor?

CM: There is a duality between customary and modern law.  The problem of the poor is their ignorance of the formal law, and then, access to credit. They do not have identification or civil status and they live in informality - which means they are not organized.  But laws have to apply to all citizens regardless of their ethnicity or finances. Laws have to be uniformly based on human rights.

 But now “il faut la vulgarize la loi” - we have to popularize the law so that ordinary people understand it.  We are working to change things. For example, the obligation to marry the brother of the husband if he dies, or the customary law that says girls cannot inherit land.  Through the modern law, we can get over the more negative customary law – but we can also preserve the good things of customary law. When a law derives from customary law, it is easier to implement because the people to whom it is addressed can recognise it and respect it. The sacred value attached to customs is a powerful factor in contributing to the strength of the law from which it derives 

 The problem of poverty in terms of access to justice is that there need to be laws which can help the poor, and materials which are understandable and which can help them make the most of their rights. There also needs to be a system to regulate the application of these laws.

What can the Commission do to help?

CM: The Commission aims to get governments thinking differently by creating and putting into place a plan of action which goes from the base to the top.  The Commission will host national consultations to directly involve the poor.  We are asking what are the principle problems which we have to resolve to help lift them out of poverty.

 The sum of these national consultations - which will bring together academics, NGOs and others - will bring together an action plan.  This plan will reach the core of the poor - because they will have expressed themselves and will have been recognized.  This is why what the Commission is doing is important. We will go to the base to get the proposal, and then we will go to the top to find the means.

 The Commission is composed of people who have senior positions at an international level and who have had experiences in the international organizations. So they are people, who given their experience, are integrated into the UN system.  The Commission has an objective to take the results of these local and regional consultations to the international community at the highest level.

 
Given your experience in Benin, what are the legal problems there?

CM: Since 1990, African states have made an effort to have a democratic phase after the revolutionary periods.  Now in most countries there are constitutions. And Benin has made big progress. All our citizens can - in theory – access justice.

 In Africa, there is a big problem of impunity. In Benin there is a lot of effort made in relation to impunity. For example, the recent case of magistrates who were judged for committing reprehensible acts.  Now there is a means of punishment.  This happened because ordinary citizens complained.  There is even a former government member who is now being held accountable for the wrong that he did.

 Our new young government is giving strong signs of supporting good governance and of reaching out to the poor. The poor must be given their rights.

 Freedom of press is very important in the democratic process. So that if the poor cannot access their rights, that there are regulatory procedures. For example, the “morning moan”or “la grogne matinale.” Every day from 7 to 7:30, ordinary citizens can call the radio to complain about what is going wrong in the country.  This is very popular with the people in government who listen and then try to correct things.

 
What about the issue of gender and the law?

CM: The problem of women in Africa is a problem of tradition.  Boys have always had priority to go to school over girls. Since girls rarely get a full education, there are few women who can get to a position like mine. But there are a lot more efforts in Africa now to ensure that girls get to school. For example, primary school is now generally free for all children.   

 In Benin, a woman presides over the constitutional court. A woman also presides over the high court. But we want women to be even more represented at a senior level in the governments.  The NGOs are fighting to help make this happen – so that even if we do not have full equality, at least the number of women represented will increase.

 

How can the poor – especially women - have greater access to justice?

CM: I was a founder of the Femmes Juristes de Benin (Association of Women Lawyers of Benin).  We trained lawyers and parajuristes (volunteer law workers without formal legal training) - so they could help the poor and so the poor could go to them directly. Canada gave funding to help continue this program.

 We also visited other countries running similar programs. We went to South Africa where the bar is organized in a way that allows the state and others to contribute young lawyers and judges, and to train them to defend the case of the poor.  There are similar programs in France.

 There is another way to let the poor have access to justice. There are teachers who are in retirement and who are not doing anything. They can be of service to others. They need to be given some incentives, but they do not need to be really paid.

 
Should the paralegals be women to help women?

CM: The more that men understand the rights of women, the easier it will be for them to apply the law. I think that whether the paralegals are men or women, they can equally help women. It is true that in certain communities it is not acceptable for men to meet with and speak with women, but we are making progress there, too. We need to progressively break these taboos. In the Muslim communities, we need to find a way of allowing women to come out and listen to a man - we need to find solutions.   

 
What happened in the Working Group?

CM: We discussed the real link between justice and poverty.  It was important for us to define that link, and then to ask ourselves: are we speaking about the majority of the poor or the poor in one developing country?  We also discussed which aspects of the legal system we would attempt to address because we cannot address it all. We decided access is most important. Access to law crosses all domains. If there is no law and no means of punishment, then we cannot benefit from these laws to rise out of poverty.

 

This interview was originally given in French. Some quotes may have been altered slightly in the translation.